I try to make sure my examples reflect current GW practice which is repellent to follow but important that people understand the stuff that I am posting is happening in real time. He essentially called the Driscoll victims liars and persecutors. "A missionary is a qualified Christian sent out under the authority of a local church to an area of recognized need in order to pursue the work of the Great Commission." re: Lindells article. Excellent comment! And the honest churches will know that most of the allegations are true and will be too ashamed to say anything. I think it underestimates those believers in the pews who are, themselves, filled with the Spirit and do exhibit the fruit of Galations 5. He can be forgiven. As for my outsider perspective he seems like someone youd want as a pastor if you wanted to get big and have lots of revenue streams. believe these churches are using Driscoll as fallen pastor insurance. ( a stage really ) Same old spin .different tune. Under the circumstances, Mark Driscoll needs a time out, huh? 11 The Lord told him, Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. Your comment is insightful and probably (for the AoG churches) right on the money. You would think that over a decade of Manly Man, sexist, dude-bro, preachers that people have had enough, the novelty has worn off, and theyre ready to get real about Church and the faith again? Wouldnt you encourage him to find another vocation? . I think people on all sides of these conflicts did some pretty horrendous things, as well as some decent things. CCHD has been in contact with the City of Ozark, where the venue is located and where there is a current masking ordinance in place. forgiveness means its paid in full. He had no idea. @ Nancy: I had been a pastor and fell horribly due to pride, arrogance, self centeredness, fear of man, desire for fame, etc. The teachings of Christ are based on love and forgiveness, and I will not write off Mark as a person simply because of the things that people have said about him, a small minority of people signing a petition or statements he has made many years ago for which he has since repeatedly apologised, Houston said. Has he asked them to forgive him? I never saw it tried in a church setting, but something like that was tried where I worked. The man can speak pretty well and seems to fill the pews. rocks are flying people are shouting opposition and accusations., in christian language christians are like sheep, opponents are like wolves, alpha, saul. Not here to argue about this, just pointing it out. The church has spawned countless church plants, charities and conferences. How do you see this as someone looking in? . Even his outrageous speak was a game where he would then delete then repent then do againshampoo, rinse, repeat. "He saw it for what it was. . (?) in the first years of the organinazation they didnt do anything without consensus because they believed that if they were a group of believers the Lord would make them of the same agreement on specific issues and if they didnt reach agreement there was a reason that needed to be looked at. then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: Regardless of your tilt on the subject, Lindell appears to go out of his way to make it into the news on the subject. He saw it as bad government.". I call that tragic because there are still a lot of honest pastors and churches out there. also, Ever heard a sermon about Slaying your giants? "Our desire for things God has forbidden is a reflection of how sin has distorted us, rather than a reflection of how Christ has made us.". That is certainly not an idea they got from the Bible. I also dont think he should work or earn profit in any manner making money off Jesus (such as selling Christian books, pod casts, site subscriptions, accepting speaking fees to appear at churches, etc). He doesnt come near to meeting basic societal criteria for a decent person. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. . I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. Last week GW was desperately trying to give away as many copies as possible of some book COO Tom Lane wrote called Letters From a Dad to a Graduate. Certainly, Fulgencio Batista (dictator of Cuba at the time of the communist takeover) was a very corrupt man, whose government did terrible things, as with Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, Papa Doc Duvalier in Haiti, and many others. In case this was not a rhetorical question, the correct answer is entertainment. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, its a lie. Did you miss a tithe payment? Week of Power with Bill Johnson & Randy Clark Sunday, March 12 - Thursday March 16. I believe this is the 2 Thessalonians time period so it will become increasingly more difficult to avoid false teachers. I think MDs desire to be on a stage, at this point, is a sure sign he should not be there. So now is the time ta share with kind folks the destination of their eternal soul? It is anguish because i love them, and see the pain of all three of them. While I appreciate that we were exposed to different theologians, it seemed the bent was toward Calvinism. That idea was right before the idea that they were always having to give a lot of money to the church while we have voluntary giving. Do I hope they change? Matthew 27:33-34 But here is the underlying issue: we in evangelical Christianity have become so good at eisogeting the scriptures (reading ourselves into the story) it has gotten to the point of narcissism, or as one preacher puts it, narcigesis., Dont believe me? In October, he resigned as head pastor from Mars Hill, a Seattle megachurch with a Sunday attendance of 13,000. pastors that use their position to wreck peoples lives arent expected to go to jail or show tears publicly and thats ok if its not warranted but it is very reasonable for people to see something, anything, that looks like actual remorse before they think its ok for them to go back to influencing the lives of people. At that time, although I led Agathos, I was not taking a salary from Agathos. Its more the non-complementarian position to argue that women should be allowed to preach/lead based on gifting and that sounds like the argument Driscoll is raising in the quotes by him I placed in this post. We dont hear about them so much, unfortunately, because they are not so concerned with informing the world about their humility. Within a few months most of the members of Mars Hill Church withdrew their support of orphans under our care. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/, http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts, http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308, http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21, http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/, http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . If you take his quotes about his economic policies in Cuba and substitute covenant or biblical Gospel he sounds about the same as the pastors we are discussing. The Lord had more to say about gall through His servant Jeremiah: Jeremiah 23:13-17 Gus, it is very naive not to take into consideration that Driscolls constant media attention did not influence the TVC response to their own problem in any way. But much of the Australian backlash has centred around Mr Driscoll's comments about women. In your mega travels Lydia, is this homogenization of bad practices the norm? What Mark Driscoll Told Brian Houston at Hillsong Conference (updated) I am the way and the truth, no one comes to the Father, but through Me -Jesus, all those who call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved!. As far as people moving into ministry later in life, one would hope they had left that life behind and were new creations in Christ. And Lindell knows none of that is because of him. Now the shock will be realizing how far theyve strayed from those virtues. Who has harmed you? Lindell's sermon is further entwined with politics because he mentions Springfield Mayor Bob Stephens. The issue, however, is character, evidenced by a pattern of behavior reported with regard to bullying behavior, narcissitic traits, etc. After surrendering more than 10% of your gross income for years you are tens of thousands of dollars into them at that point and that can really bolster all the cognitive dissonance you feel and strangely work to prevent your leaving. The question may even be wrong, maybe it isnt what is the church but who is. The emails we received were similarly written. I guess Calvinism for these guys means never having to take personal responsibility. pic.twitter.com/Wt6wZOdE9J. So, where are the reasonable people? Acts 6:15, they were enraged. Ans. http://www.richmond.com/news/local/city-of-richmond/article_4d131547-f913-5d43-bfc5-5a292f4c27e1.html, What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. The first time, it was shocking. For those who follow celebrities, I dont, this is the church that made it into the news last year. The text is not prescriptive. until he says otherwise what else can a person think? Having a large following for a while, being insulated from most of reality, produces this result. The term was invented by Tom Wolfe back in the 70s to describe the superficial gliteratti associating with revolutionary thugs as a way to prove their bonafides. Let me look it up. Others obviously put a lot more emphasis on organizational structures, so they might see things differently. Have you noticed the more scandals from some thugs they actually become more popular? its a little hard to swallow that he knew nothing about Driscolls behaviour. A group of followers dealing directly with each other and not with an institution sounds appealing. Our model gets smarter over time as more people share salaries on Glassdoor. Why should we be surprised? I take it to mean: Don't feel so bad, there are whole lot of other people hell-bound, too. i have very little church experience so i dont think i am qualified to even speak to these things though. At least at one point, women made up about 50% to 50% of most churches. Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. we see this in culture and politics all the time. The true character of a man shows when you see how he treats those with less power who depend on him for his income. Thanks for that recommendation. However, we also see that David and Samuel were permitted to speak out publicly against Saul in truth. The problem is that the average pew-sitter has no idea what things a leader should be judged by, and they merely judge based on either looks, speaking ability, or how fun the service is. Lindell needs to state, specifically, what has been written about Driscoll that is a lie, because he is in effect calling all the victims and the 40 pastors/elders who filed formal charges against MD liars. Like God might show up. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation). In their case, they just use Jesus as marketing tool to sell their own image.It is not like they have not had access to truth. If not, why not? I dont see how or why the Jerusalem church could have trusted him at that point, even though they might (or some of them might) have believed his vision and repentance were real. Again. I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. Why am I concerned? Of course BHouston can know about MDs statements in the past 5 minutes of Googling will turn up Wenatchee The Hatchets meticulous documentation, screenshots and all, and Warren Throckmortons extensive documentation, the mp3 of the infamous sermon in Scotland, etc pp. http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, A few items: A preacher is not to be- i have met people that have told me that they went to gateway (and other churches that are similar) but no longer do without ever saying why. Pouring what, exactly? Glassdoor provides our best prediction for total pay in today's job market, along with other types of pay like cash bonuses, stock bonuses, profit sharing, sales commissions, and tips. Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. What I dont get is why Hillsong and Assemblies of God (James River Church), who have extremely different views on women in the church would even consider someone like Mark Driscoll as a special speaker. But forgiveness doesnt mean he should ever be in the same position in a church again. Where David cut the fabric from Sauls garment in the cave, showing he could have killed Saul but didnt, reflects Gods desire that David not physically harm Saul. He was engaging, funny and gracious. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. Then he stated emphatically: Now let me just say this to you today cause I have no apology for Mark being there; Im glad Marks here. He said that his hands were tied. The way I see things may be different in that I see the individuals in the Kingdom being more important than mediating organizations in the church universal. I started to ask myself, If Christ is present in someones life, and therefore the Spirit, will not God, in his infinite power, begin to produce those things in that person? And I began to wonder if Mark Driscoll even possessed the Spirit of God. And of course, the author of Acts is writing more of a historical narrative so we dont get a lot of details. think of him as he is pray to glorified jesusking of kings lord of lords worshiped by angels. stephen says Ive gotta find jesus on the worst most devasting difficult damaging day of my life I have to find jesus (more mark interpreting the bible for all of us non pastors, stephen already knew where Jesus was) and he sees jesus, what is jesus doing? and that it is ok to debate that point in public. If there are reports of a scandal or problems at a church, they are true. Saul did get out of Dodge for some years. where is God in all this? I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. Do these Pentecostal leaders believe that there is a doppelgnger out there who tied MD up in a basement then impersonated him, swearing and saying horrible things from the pulpit? any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. Pastors that dont understand the devestation they cause by playing God in peoples lives, especially women and childrens lives, have no business calling themselves christians and certainly shouldnt be in positions where people might think they are speaking for God Himself when they tell them how to live. It seems foolish from a marketing and business view to alienate over half your customers.. But he was not still throwing men and women (!) Your California Privacy Rights / Privacy Policy. Welcome to the James River Church YouTube Channel where you will find weekly encouraging sermons from Pastor John Lindell and others! I have a young friend who was totally enamored with him. He. The financial aspects. Bingo. FTR Hillsong is also Assemblies of God. It is affiliated with Assemblies of God USA. He said it makes sense that the word "sin" would appear multiple times in a Biblical discussion of homosexuality. Im not invested in liking or disliking Che so I truly welcome your comments. An awful lot of people are having to do the exact same thing. I have always found this aspect of Pauls story very interesting. First, he begins by praying that he wants to make this time just about God and His people; yet he appears to take the stories of Stephen and Paul and apply them to his own circumstance at least that's how it sounded to me. But with those reading glasses they are losing their hipness and relevance and megas feed off of young marrieds with children. shuning is not always done professionally as in TVC but so often done whisperingly in churches but the effect is the same to the person shunned. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyones eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. Ive recently read Wayne Jacobsen Finding Church, Frank Viola Finding Organic Church, Terry Stanley The way Church Was Meant To Be and found what they think the church should be an interesting concept but so far Im not convinced. Question: @netgrace was involved with Vineyard Duluth and did a great job. I had never heard someone talk like that. He is young and using Jesus is all he knows. He looked at me kindly and slightly amused and said, thats okay. people have said to stay involved in churches to keep them encouraged to follow the Lord and speak up if they are going away towards money and corruption, that is no longer even possible, you can get shunned slandered and prob threats to your life for speaking up anymore. I suspect that process would take a bit longer with Driscoll hes a bigger mess. if mark is not truly repentant, (which is totally conceivable since he has never apologized for anything except being too unkind in firing people and running people into the ground under his God given authority) then this could be compared, (by sin levelers who will be quick to show up here and defend him)this could be compared to Jordan Root getting right back in the mission field and preaching about what happens when women and heathens in the press persecute godly people accused of child porn addictions with no evidence. Think of it as telling a kid how special they are every day and giving them a trophy daily. ". well i cant finish watching the whole thing. My point with Che is to draw a parallel. Above all he had that coveted edginess he wore age and occupation inappropriate t shirts and chunky jewelry on the pulpit. Penalty Flag? Open Discussion Page. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card and teach cheap grace. The program includes signing over any welfare benefits to the Ministry, with the program alleged to contain little actual psychological assistance, and mostly prayer and expelling demons. No one has to agree with me. Mr. Petry was fired and ordered to be excommunicated and shunned for his opposing Driscolls move to consolidate power in the church and not have Biblical accountability before the elders. Here is Stephen facing public opposition. If so you may be onto something. In a statement Monday, the Christian County Health Department said they also received numerous complaints from the community about the services and urged those who attended to monitor themselves for COVID-19 symptoms over the next 14 days. The following excerpt from that article caught my attention: "I do not want unnecessary distractions during our conference, particularly as this 30 minute interview was only a small part of this five day event," Mr Houston said in a statement. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . I am thinking that is no doubt true, but Saul/Paul was also a religious activist who had double crossed his former sponsors in Jerusalem who had given him credentials to go seek out believers for persecution. 99,693 were here. Whats worse, total lack of good character. Lydia on Sat Jun 13, 2015 at 12:48 I recently had coffee with a staunch Mark Driscoll supporter who has chided any criticism of Mark Driscoll and strongly challenged me for every apparent infraction of the last year, yet at the same time vigorously excused or defended every one of Driscolls mistakes. The supporter said some awful things about me and Agathos, particularly its misuse of funds. Dont give into his deception. what would you say and do (if they stoned you) angry mob is murdering him openly publicly and shamefully. "Homosexual sin is not the only serious sin. He was an abusing thug. ++++++++++++++++. Rob Smiths orphanage was totally defunded and left broke by Marks Hill, the Lord has taken up for those children, thankfully. It shows also in our perception of ourselves and others when we still have areas of sin. In the wake of this and other scandals, the Mars Hill Church collapsed . Who would have thought that the message of the Cross for ALL people (the whosoever wills) would be diminished in pentecostal ranks?! Is that leader with a criminal record hitting on your young teen? hes a wonderful pastor to the very end. There is an old belief in bapto-evangelico circles that one of the criticisms that could for sure be said against certain other christian religious traditions is that they have priests and we do not, because they let the priests tell them what to do and influence them too much but in our way of doing things that does not happen. We are dedicated to making a difference in the lives of people through relevant teaching, heartfelt worship, and amazing kids & youth programs. And the same shtitck but did not call them atmostphere teams but hosts. Certainly, or we are no better than he is. While a decreasing quota meant less pay. If we were after money we would need to time our exit before Driscoll pulled the roof in again. These churches are both responsible for vetting their speakers, and they utterly failed on this one. This is not a measure of faith. I mean this only works in some venues. (if you heard anything on the internet its not true, mark scrubbed his site already so if its on the internet a bunch of liars wrote it) we dont want to shoot the wounded. And did he threaten to punch Pastor Lindell in the nose and throw him under the bus if he wasnt given the gig? I only write the truth about Gateway in order to warn others, never to discourage anyone. So start telling us exactly what in the blogosphere is false. Thats exactly what I was thinking last weekend! Or alcoholics working in a bar. It is all he knows, and Im sure he has bills to pay, and is used to a certain standard of living. Help keep The Christian Post free for everyone by making a one-time donation today. Reverend Mark Driscoll has sinned before many witness, this had been profusely and laboriously documented, and is to be rebuked before all. And equally astonishing is that other Christian leaders support his abusive style or at least overlook it. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. love to hear that sermon. No body guards. I believe that.' Some Pentecostals or Charismatics are okay with women being preachers or teachers. Join us for life-giving worship, encouraging stories and testimonies, and a powerful message from Pastor John. I used to buy into this,thinking it is such wisdom to see ourselves in the examples of scripture, until I realized that we never seem to see ourselves as the villain. like i said it went away from that and i didnt look into why. You might be onto something there Sopy. . Wow! The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done. You are so spot on. He has lots of pics holding impoverished babies while his own 5 kids barely saw him. http://mercysurvivors.com/2014/03/06/mercy-ministries-peru-309k-and-no-cherry/#more-1348. The prophets in that verse are likewise OT prophets and also refers only to physical harm. I am not surprised he is mobilizing his church, which packs a powerful political punch through the sheer number of members and, I believe, their commitment to vote. Title A friend of the family stated the same. He can darn well get used to a lower standard of living. Ill be honest I dont see Christ in it. he smiles and there is love in his heart. The bathrooms were tiny and not particularly nice. Hillsong church head Brian Houston accused alleged child abuse victim of tempting father, inquiry told, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2783128/Hillsong-church-founder-offered-sex-abuse-victim-10000-meeting-McDonalds-restaurant.html. Thats why I would use a better example: If you knew that someone is a recovering alcoholic, would you employ him as a barkeeper? Q. I followed up on the link and have been sharing this song with families and friends! The only two ways that I can think of for having said benchmarks, assuming by leadership you mean pastor(s) and not just chairman of some committee, is either having a system with central authority with established criteria which must be met prior to ordination and some written policies which are grounds for dismissal in certain conditions, That would be a denominational hierarchical system with designated people with authority and with something in writing, like an official book of how we do it. Or else to have a savvy and informed and mature congregation who would agree with and co-operate with each other on what was necessary and what needed done and which would have the actual power (backing of the people) to get it done.
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