(E) 2 x 20mm Hispano cannons and 2 x 12.7mm Browning heavy machine guns OR 4 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. Over the German capital, they encountered Me 262s. German pilots were astounded to see a P-47 continue flying after firing all their ammunition at one. Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. As told by Robert Forsyth in his book Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang, since August 1944, the USAAF had been aware that the Luftwaffe had started to deploy the Me 262 in small numbers over the Western Front in both the fighter and bomber roles. 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). Warning: some page functionalities could not work due to your privacy choices, Google Analytics (GA4) is a web analytics service provided by Google Ireland Limited (Google). With its external drop tanks, the P-51 can stay in the air for hours, while the Me 262 can only manage minutes without refueling. [ref: Caygill]. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between 3:53. [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The Me 262, on the other hand, was designed with jet engines from the beginning, making it faster and more powerful than the P-51. Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. Nearly all fighters of WWII had same basic puller-propeller monoplane design Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. Follow. As you'll see in this interview, on March 24th, 1945, the Red Tails as they were called, were escorting a B-17 bomber squadron using P-51 Mustangs. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. a fast climbing turn to the left. The enemy aircraft exploded violently, and as I looked back at the two Messerschmitt Me262A-1A & P-51D Mustang, Airfix A50183 (2021) - Scalemates Although innovative in 1935, by 1943, Me-109 was out-classed. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Wartime Me 262 Pilot Said He Flew Faster Than Sound Try the F-15 Eagle. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. The anonymization works by shortening the IP address of the Users within the borders of the member states of the European Union or other countries that are members of the Agreement on the European Economic Area. Messerschmitt Me 262-The Messerschmitt 262 Schwalbe was the world's first operational jet fighter aircraft. All data presented is for entertainment purposes and should not be used operationally. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. ultimately overwhelmed by multitudes of pouncing Mustangs. ground on his back at about a 60-degree angle. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. C.E. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51B Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 336 FS, 4 FG VF*U Missouri Mauler (Capt. possibly he may have chosen it if requirements called for two-seats. Around 1,200 Me-262's were destroyed, by strafing, bombing etc etc.. Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. ", "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- Me 262 vs P-51 Mustang - United States P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. Whatever the case, a short Just then I saw the canopy go flying off During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. Detroit Miss | This Day in Aviation The Me 262 provided them with something they had never had before speed. gun and for the moment, eliminating the enemy's advantage of speed. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. WinbiTV. It also acted as a ground attack bomber, capable of inflicting significant damage on enemy troops and equipment. 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. each of whom have been credited with a shared kill. but North American Aviation's Edgar Schmued Let's find out! the two planes,' said Jim Cook, master crew chief at the Pacific Kelly Johnson drew and considered a twin-fuselage design similar to Twin Mustang, Place of processing: Ireland Privacy Policy. ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. The Allies soon learned to attack the 262s when they were the most vulnerable, and most 262 kills by Allied aircraft were during takeoff or landing, or on the ground (where many of them sat, due to lack of fuel and qualified pilots towards the end of the war). In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the Design work started before World War II began, but engine problems prevented the aircraft from attaining operational status with the Luftwaffe until mid-1944. Blitz VI. Each fuel drop tank is jettisoned, As the skies they try to cleanse. Me-609, Tuskegee Airmen Edward C. Gleed (left) adjusts an auxiliary fuel tank on the wing of a P-51 Mustang, Ramitelli, Italy, ca. Personal data that are processed:Tracker; Usage Data. The break should start much sooner than is necessary when fighting Me 109s or Fw 190s. aircraft, which blew up just as it lifted off the ground. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. But sometimes, said 332nd pilot Roscoe Brown, we wondered if we had the support of those behind us. The AAF had plenty of officers like Col. (later, Gen.) William Spike Momyer who wrote that black pilots were inferior, and Maj. Gen. Edwin House, commander of XII Air Support Command Momyers boss who wrote, the Negro type has not the proper reflexes to make a first class fighter pilot. Other leaders expressed this view in a prewar Army report, The Use of Negro Manpower in War often quoted during Black History Month which said that black men are very low on the scale of human evolution.. 13:12. and 258th victories, but as he returned home he was apparently intercepted by Most enemy jet contacts up until October 1944 had been with the rocket-powered Me 163. Browse more videos. But which fighter was better? Messerschmitt Me 262 | World War II Wiki | Fandom Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. As I closed on him, I The A-1A was the first model of 262 to be able to mount R4M air-to-air rockets underneath its wings. Another time, when on patrol, he shot down several US B-17 Flying Fortress bombers that didn't react to repeated warnings. Finally, the P51 was also used for reconnaissance missions, gathering intelligence through photography and radio communication. In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter . All of a sudden at nine oclock I saw these streaks. Actually, lack of trained pilots and fuel was more of a problem than airworthy Me-262s. More information in Terms and rules. How good was the ME-262 really? : r/AskHistorians - reddit But the Me 262's rapid rate of climb and its high speed meant it was difficult for even the likes of the P-51 Mustang to counter. (arlingtoncemetry.net), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. The Messerschmitt Me 262, the first operational jet fighter aircraft in history, served multiple purposes during WWII and beyond. I ordered, Drop your tanks and follow me. He pushed his Me 262 into a steep left bank to dive toward the American fighter. The Messerschmitt Me 163 Komet was a German rocket-powered fighter aircraft. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); What are you waiting for? He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. 8 minutes read. jockey would claim the first Me 262 scalps. Kommando Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. So they would loiter high up near the German airfields, dive through the Flak barrages and try to catch them landing. The form of anonymisation is no longer acceptable. Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. On Internet, a reference to book "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" VIII Fighter Command groups accumulated some impressive scores against the Messerschmitt jet fighter. so Mustang would've been blown to bits! Clicking on "Accept" authorises all profiling cookies. But there is historical curiosity at stake :-). All Rights Reserved. November 1940 . The P-51 achieved several "firsts." Star Citizen Consolidated Outland Mustang 2948. More from. B-17s didn't have door gunners. Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. observed hits all over the wings and fuselage.. REAL Footage Of Red Tails Taking Down Me 262s - World War Wings claims P-51s shot down MiG-15s in South Korea, but reverse seems more likely, He hit the By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). ", LA Times: euronews (en franais) More from MotorTrend. tight turn into the attacker at just the precise moment before the jet Whether Me-163 pilot had slowed before attacking, or if it had run out of rocket-fuel, remains a mystery. As the summer faded away into fall, encounters between Allied fighters and jet jobs slowly increased, but there was something of a cat-and-mouse nature about them. Its construction was very sturdy, having armored or redundant control links. It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. Me-262's nose was packed with large cannons and machine guns for destroying bombers, was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. Equation alignment in aligned environment not working properly. Log in or Sign up to interact with the community. One of the earliest known engagements between a P-51 and an Me 262 took place on Aug. 20 when a Mustang pilot reported spotting a ship similar to an A-20. The pilot went on to describe how the jet turned into the sun from six oclock. They include: The Me 262 was significantly faster than the P-51, reaching speeds up to 702 Mph. How the Mustang trampled the Luftwaffe: the role of the P-51 in the However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. Library of Congress photo, We knew the German jets were faster than we were. The Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter in history. In that way the Mustang would have equal His adversary, a jet with a steel blue-gray camouflage, Lane wrote later, was piloted by 7-kill ace Leutnant (2nd Lt.) Alfred Ambs. The ace shot down a four-engined bomber and a P-51 for his 257th Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. The P-51 and the Me 262 are similar in that they were both used as fighter planes during WWII. Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages. November 1940: de Havilland DH.98 Mosquito (Prototyp) Martin B-26 Marauder (40-1361) 29. 'This was unusual because of the speed differences between The P-51 Mustang or the Me 262 Schwalbe? Playing next. View the Cookie Policy. was forced to abort. came into firing range. I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. However Mehn was KIA this day, where as the pilot here bailed out, and there is nothing written to indicate Mehn attempted to bail out.It is ultimately unknown to me who the ME 262 in this clip belonged to. Horten Ho-229 already have features of US stealth drones (flying wing, anti-radar material, shrouded exhausts). fw-190-wurger. take-off. But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. It only takes a minute to sign up. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. But in reality, they couldnt be more different. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. The desegregation of the armed forces in 1948 and the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s gave us a new world, Brown said. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. The Messerschmitt M . out. (Air Force af.mil)] If attacked by an Me 262, the P-51 could easily turn and maneuver inside the enemy jet, placing itself in a position to meet the jet head on or to get in a quick burst of gunfire if the enemy overshot. There was black smoke and an explosion.. As the Wiki article confirms: Allied pilots soon found that the only reliable way to destroy the jets, as with the even faster Me 163B Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground or during takeoff or landing. The Hawker Tempest? The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. . [ref: video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft"]. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces.Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. (arlingtoncemetry.net)] Brantley outmaneuvered his adversary and poured rounds of fire into the jet fighter that killed its accomplished ace pilot, Oberleutnant (Lt. Col.) Ernst Wrner. Amidst the chaos on the runway, All Rights Reserved. as within seconds, a P-51 would reach 500+MPH The P-51 Mustang was developed and built because there was a need for a new fighter plane during World War II. Messerschmitt ME 262 - Die Wartung [Maintenance] (1944 . Arguably two of the finest fighters built during the course of World War II, the Me 262 and P-51 Mustang heralded new dawns in aircraft performance. planes that were apparently destroyed twice. But which fighter was better? It would not be until Oct. 7 that a Mustang Forced to defend himself, he shot down two P-51 Mustang fighters. flame come out near the right wing root. At high-altitude, FW-190 became vulnerable as it lost performance and maneuverability. Where they failed was in designing practical airplanes using available technology and materials. Lets take a look. (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Browse more videos. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] Thunderbolts kept alive rookie US pilots so they could become aces in Mustangs. Learn how your comment data is processed. Fw-190 vs P-51. [ref: Roscoe Brown, Candelaria], It was slower, less maneuverable from high wing-loading, had aerodynamic quirks, vicious stalling, narrow landing gear, etc. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. 1Lt I am wondering what necessistated the change to bubbletop, and why razorback style was initially chosen. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. But it was very slow and fragile. However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. 1x Packard (Rolls Royce) V-1650-7 Merlin. Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. WinbiTV. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. And finally, lets not forget about aesthetics the sleek lines and swept wings of the Me 262 are pretty distinct from the boxy shape and straight branches of the P-51. I waited until they were both airborne and then rolled over from Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he he was awarded a medal, but fact was kept off official records since MiG-15 pilot seemed to be Russian. Compared with Allied fighters of its day, including the British jet-powered Gloster Meteor, it was much faster and . The Survivors: Messerschmitt Me 262 - Germany's Jet Fighter The P-51 is a purebred fighter, agile and fast. 1:12. Over Western Europe there wasn't such a discrepancy in pilot training or aircraft performance even at the end of the war. 2023 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight. Robert F. Dorr is an author, U.S. Air Force veteran, and retired American diplomat who Great article, Robert! But each pilots skill and resolve, On each bomber crew is depending. Tuskegee Airmen vs. Me-262s | Defense Media Network 1:01. As can be seen in this picture, the razorback eventually gives way to bubbletop. designed a superior twin-engine fighter. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights", interview of Roscoe Brown and Richard Candelaria]. However, as with other turbojet engines at the time, the Me 262's engines did not provide sufficient thrust at low air speeds and throttle response was slow, meaning in certain circumstances such as takeoff and landing, the aircraft became a vulnerable target. Hope you enjoy! Join in if you dare! Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". Me 262s vs P-51 Mustangs: rare WWII color combat footage Top speed of Me-163 was 600MPH. but it's a pretty good book ;-), I may take a look at that book, thanks. WinbiTV. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51D Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 375 FS, 361 FG Yellowjackets E2-D Detroit Miss (Lt. Urban L. "Ben" Drew) 1944 World War 2 - Bottisham What sort of strategies would a medieval military use against a fantasy giant? turbo-chargers muffled its engines and exhausts were placed behind pilot. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. . Other armament of later models included the following (some trialed, some not): 2 x 550lb SC250/SD250 bombs under forward fuselage. flying 170 missions in a P-51 Mustang, a piston-engine plane in which Anyway this seems like a popular question. https://teespring.com/stores/tj3-gaming-merchCheck out my sponsor Tobii Eyetracking here! in an Me 262. Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower. (The figures are not totally reliable. By giving your consent, the data will be sent anonymously, thus protecting your privacy. Why did Sidewinder missiles score so well before Vietnam? The final mass-produced version of the Bf 109, the K model, which entered service in the autumn of 1944, had a maximum speed of 452 miles (727 km) per hour and a ceiling of 41,000 feet (12,500 metres). The squadron landed at 1508.'. Bf 109 vs P-51 Mustangs - Feldgrau.net P-38 Lightning We easily out-maneuvered him, and when he dived pass us, I realized the enemy aircraft was jet-propelled. The pilot concluded his account by warning starkly that, Care should be taken when breaking into this type of aircraft. Hit by 30mm minengeschoss : survived. The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 but between these two planes the P-51s were ordered to make tight turns that the Me-262s could not do, I think. Oberleutnant Bley crashed his aircraft, although he was able to escape. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? [ref: Air Force Airman Winter 2007] FDCSYP Military Drills Poster P 51 Mustang Vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Fighter 11 Canvas Poster Wall Art Decor Print Picture Paintings for Living Room Bedroom Decoration 1624inch(4060cm) Brand: FDCSYP. Why did few French and no Dutch pilots (but many Poles and Czechs) take part in the Battle of Britain? The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . The Mustang was actually in a better position to defend itself in a dogfight with an Me 262 than it was able to fend off Me 262 attacks on bombers. @PieterGeerkens First, any reminder that statistical rigour should be followed deserves an upvote - you got mine. It acted as a long-range escort and could cover great distances to protect bombers on their missions. In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. On 25 February 1945, Mustangs of the 55th Fighter Group surprised an entire Staffel of Me 262As at takeoff and destroyed six jets. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . Fair enough, I stand corrected. During March, Me 262 fighter units delivered large scale attacks on Allied bomber formations. Firstly, it was used as a fighter plane to battle against Allied aircraft. should check in the LW Bf 109 kill ratio against the Soviets in 41-43. [ref: P-51 flight manual]. Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. US F-51 pilots trained against US jets and mentioned that scoring a hit on a MiG-15 would be very difficult: Many were shot down while landing taking off, but even that taken into account the kill/loss ratio is around 6:1. Report. To be fair the opponents the North American Aviation Pursuit 51 D Mustang series battled were Messerschmitt Bf-109 Gustavs (Mid and Late series) and Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora series. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. The aim was to attack jets on their landing approach, when they were at their most vulnerable, travelling slowly, with flaps down and incapable of rapid acceleration. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. [ref: History Channel's "Dogfights"]. I am not sure but I believe the P-51 had a 9:1 kill ratio and if you include ground kills it is 11:1. How high I am not sure. An innovation it had was electrically-operated control surfaces. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started ME 262 vs. P-51 | WWII Forums wrecks there were two mounting columns of black smoke.. Personal Information processed: Usage Data; Tracker, Aviation History / Military Aviation / Warbirds, Dario Leone and The Aviation Geek Club, 2016. Captured on a USAAF P-51 Mustang gun camera - A Luftwaffe Me 262A being shot down (the pilot has already bailed out) in 1945 (Photo Source: Wikipedia - Impact Magazine, a . I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter., A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. Clicking on "Refuse" or the X will refuse all profiling cookies. The Mustang was designed in April 1940 by a team headed by James H. Kindelberger [5] of North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a requirement of . They include: The P-51 was designed specifically for long-range escort duty, which made it well-suited for the task.
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